I used to live in cda, Idaho...the place that the Duncan incident occurred.
The girl who was involved is known by many in my friend circle.

Your name has always bothered me.

I am going to lay off that one for being neighborly.

Wouldn't want anyone getting stabbed on your first page in the neighborhood.

Besides, its really those Anime peeps you have to worry about.

Especially if you see them running around with tentacles.

Very slow, short range, scanner at 20dB which can be evaded by all scouts at some effort, not maximum, and seen by everyone, esp CA scouts that then can engage before the Amarr sees him. Doesn't seem to break anything.

It was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles.

...or to hide a easy to see dropsuit from scans.

... sucks the energy out of enemy Uplinks/Nanohives

I've been interested by attaching the ability to hack to use of a codebreaker. Thus you cold require either a codebreaker of X meta level to hack gear of Y meta level. Or a X number of codebreakers to hack gear of Y meta level.
In either case the baseline function of the codebreaker(s) remains.

Provides some slot competition, gives added incentive to run proto hives and links (harder to hack) etc.
It creates interplay rather than a yes/no system, and this may be computer coding (yep even on a console it's still that )
we're talking about here but avoiding binary outcomes is still a good idea in my view.

3 proto flux scanners equal perma scans thats for an easy money maker for the gal logi. Just be 100m away from the action and scan away!

Which also usually don't pay enough to break even despite their high WP totals

Right now the Gal logi is like the Fac War of roles, yes you can run it, and run it well... but you'd better expect to run something else to pay for it

Edit: Putting together a G/1 variation ...

G/1 has 3 equipment slots, so you mean Creodron Active Scanner x2, right?

Passive scans are shared by squad. Direct line of sight is not shared with anyone. Infantry active scanners are shared with team, Vehicle active scanners are only shared with squad.

To your point, all suits of the same tier should normally be of similar pricing. However, because the Logis carry more equipment than any other suit and you can only discount equipment so much, an additional discount needs to be applied to Logi suits so that a fully loaded Logi fit is still comparable in total cost to fully loaded versions of other suits.

Yes I'd be interested in seeing a sheet on that. Honestly doing that has been on my 'to do' list for awhile now but there are only so many free hours

I'll have a worksheet together for you by the end of the day; will post it here for inspection by the Ward.

The numbers look about right to me, except I can't parse the difference between my play experience and what the numbers claim as far as the Min assault is concerned...

Butt hurt TryHards want the Logi nerfed after it finally receives the buffs we've been fighting for, for over a year. Got it.

With all due respect, Scouts received a huge buff in CPU and PG, as well as the most game breaking piece of equipment for invisibility.

Logis are getting a slight speed buff. .3 m/s in most cases...

debatable.

Indeed, honestly moments like this (when combined with all the feedback in the Speed/eHP thread... yes I've read every post in there... ) makes me think perhaps CCP should just normalize strafe speed across the boards (or something closer to it) and pull it back to nearer the ~60% levels of prior builds.

If it is indeed the "wiggle dance" that is so combat potent that it can define what is the best slayer suit (as is being suggested by various players on the forums and off), and it is also widely acknowledged that it is a form of breaking the in game hit detection, then isn't it time to take that tool off the table for everyone?

But saying that, even here, seems like it's just lighting a fuse and waiting to be flamed

Latest upload
Logi Discussion

I wrote an article awhile back about the NDA, figured it was time to share it a little more widely.
It's here for those interested.

Agree, so far so good regarding the changes.
[Note: my testing is still in the very early stages, conclusions may change with more time and data]

Dearest Logi brethren, I am looking to spec into a second Logi suit. Please advise which suit between Amarr, Gal, and Cal I should choose, and why. I really don't want to spec Amarr, but if your argument is persuasive enough...

Nice trend, I wish I could zero in on more complex data points to find out if the bulk of those suits are being run as actual support loadouts or simply as "slayer light" fitting types.

Very interesting fit indeed! Surprising to not see any Reactives for the reps, and with the standard Rail instead of the CQC Assault variant. Are you mainly staying back, and not providing frontline support with it?

I'm also looking for a fit that will complement my Mass Driver, since I run that 90% of the time. I know that Cal is a good choice due to being shield based, but I often flux myself, and this would leave the Gal Logi in a much better spot HP wise it seems. However, the Cal Logi hive bonus would probably be a MD users dream.

I don't know how I feel about that RR on a GalLogi

H: Comp Prec
H: Comp Prec

EQ: K/17-D Nano
EQ: Core Repair Tool
EQ: Wyrkomi Needle
EQ: Creo Flux Active Scanner

Skilled into Caldari but I'm not sure how to fit my lows.

Armor tanking seemed to have the best survivability, but I really want at least one regulator. You can't completely rely on your shields, and sprint mods were useful for getting around but I still had issues getting away before all of my HP was drained.

Has anyone tried dampeners? What is your optimal sprint speed this build, and how much HP do you generally aim for on a prototype suit?

The new slot layout is 5/3/4 (H/L/E), and no longer needs a cpu mod because of the extra CPU with this last update

How much of a difference does the extra precision make?

Skilled into Cal Logi as well, but haven't tested it yet. Thinking ...

Logi C/1 (99k)
HS: Enh Shields (x3), Cmp Precision, Cmp Recharger
LS: Enh Plates, Cmp Ferro (x2), Enh CPU
PW: Rail
GR: Core Locus
EQ: Allotek(R), Compact, Core Repper

Good input! Which of the two would you say works best with a Mass Driver?

... it makes me wonder; what is still making the Cal Logi the weaker choice?

It's almost as if I have to stack armor on a shield suit, just to survive...

Logi gk.0 (190k)
HS: Cmp Dmg Amp (x2), Cmp Precision
LS: Basic Plates (x3), Cmp Reps (x2)
EQ: Creodron Flux Scanner (x2), Viziam Flux Uplink, Allotek Hive
PW: SB-39 (or) SL-4 Rail Rifle
GR: Core Locus

Where do I go to vote

Thank you for your help, but sadly, I could not vote due to the 60 day 30 hour rule. I have been playing for over a year. I guess starting/joining a corps resets the tickers that may be used to allow you to vote. I will say that Cross is in both of the forums I read and is helpful in both. He may even be the person I run some thoughts by before posting them.

So, I was wondering, now that I have (finally) gotten my proto scout what logi I should skill into next.

I am leaning towards the cal logi, but I thought I would ask for your opinions before I make a move, because I am pretty sure that you guys know more about this than I do.

Opinions, or thoughts?

Have the min proto, have for a while.

as for the others I was thinking about the gal as well, but its bonus's don't speak to me.

I normally do run a scanner, but I am god awful at using them, though I perhaps should try to get better.

Question, An orange sparkle on a vehicle is what exactly?

We could have the shield rep tool be like an inverse flux nade. When the logi triggers it, all suits within X Meters are recharged for Y shield hp. Cooldown of Z seconds.

I doubt there's any official position, we're all just individuals here sharing a common topic.
There's also less talk about it because frankly both the gal logi and the active scanner are simply not run as often as the min or amarr logi or the equipment counterparts repair tool and uplinks. Both scans and hives can absolutely have an impact on the outcome of a battle, but they are still overshadowed by reps and uplinks when it comes to the usual logi tool kit, thus conversations on them are more limited and frequently cast in the "what would make them appealing enough to run more equally" light.

There is no "everything is fine" consensus about the scanners, they have many problems (of which yes the mechanics of WP earning is one) but it is vital to note that it is problems plural not problem singular.

As I have stated on numerous occasions, several of them directly to you, the scanner is neither OP nor UP because it has enough issues that they 'cancel out' as far as the power curve, but since two wrongs don't make a right it still leaves the scanner broken without being outright OP or UP.

Very few folks disagree with the assessment that the binary system for ewar is unfortunate at best, so no final situation is going to be ideal as long as that remains true, that being the case any solution has to look to the margins for traction.
One key margin is to address the scanner and the gal bonus as the separate entities they are.
We don't rebalance shield regs by focusing on the CalSent, or alter the baseline stats of the combat rifle based on the MinAss, nor are damps balanced based on the bonus of the Gal Scout.
Of course edge cases and total possible net function must be considered, of that there is no question, but comparing only, or even primarily, absolute edge cases is going to yield no valuable margin when it comes to the binary state of ewar.
Thus considering scan vs base profiles, scan vs base + general skills, scan vs base + gen + role, and scan vs base + gen + role + damps are all worthwhile. Including in that at the far end the gal bonus as well is also worthwhile.
When we reach that point however other mechanical considerations also enter the picture, for example passive vs active is a key element. The raw stat profiles do not tell the full tail, damps on a suit cost possible HP, active scans cost cpu/pg but as important as the fittings implications are the battle implications, to scan one must have the scanner out, not a weapon. To 'chain scan' one must have a consecutive series of scanners out rather than a weapon.
Passive scans and damps by contract do not require this trade off.

Then there are sub aspects of the scanners, for example team scanners vs squad scanners.
Range, duration, and angle vs precision.
These must be considered and accounted for.

On balance the highest precision scanner run but a suit with max bonuses to scan should (in our unfortunate binary situation) be the final word in the ewar tug of war. However, at what range does that happen? For what duration? With what angle of application? Is that a team scan or squad? (I'd lean towards squad) What is the PG/CPU cost of that scanner?
In short what is the opportunity cost of running the racial role of the suit at the highest level?

There's also another factor to consider here, that is the cloak. In it's current form it does not offer much in the way of damp, however shifting some the overall "pie" of damping away from other aspects currently in game, racial bonuses, mods, et al, and toward the cloak with it's built in limited duration adds intriguing possibilities for interplay and a real case could be made that a cloak with a lower total duration could warrant a higher total damp value, perhaps even enough to grant supremacy even against the gal active scans. Again it all comes down to the margins and the opportunity costs.

Right now, the opportunity cost for active scans is generally too high to be worth running for support players and also too high to be worth running against for most stealth players. And in that sense it joins the rest of the equipment line in needing some high value work, I can cite substantial issues with every item that fits into an equipment slot and very much support a full equipment pass (vehicle equipment included).

0.02 ISK
Cross

2. A sample group of one is insufficient to define a use case, while I am certain there are quite a few players who could keep scans up and still slay like mad, there are also players who can slay like mad with most fits and weapons so that alone cannot be held as definitive. True the opportunity cost for pure use of the scanner may not be high for most players, but it is nonetheless present and should not be completely discounted out of hand, however the key aspect of this point also applies to #3 so I'll move on.

I don't mean to parrot here but I too find myself not sure who you are talking to, or perhaps more specifically not sure what you are referencing. I say this because at not time have I asserted the claim that active scans aren't a balance issue serious or otherwise. The statement I have repeatedly made is that they - along with the rest of equipment - are in need of work and further in the case of active scans specifically that they are broken in a number of ways that both add and detract from their value, and that these ways far from making them 'in a good place' actually compound each other.

We may have to agree to disagree on some points as that can happen in any discourse, but here I am confused as to what you are disagreeing with because it seems as if you have simply misread my prior post. Allow me then to reiterate in more direct terms in the hopes of clearing up any prior misunderstanding.

I do believe that active scanners need work and never remember claiming otherwise, if I have at some prior time claimed otherwise then that view has been revised and does not reflect my current stance. I believe there are balance issues to address within the active scanner line internally (as one scanner relates to another) within equipment (as the value both tactical and earnings relates to other equipment) and pertinent to larger game balance (i.e. eWar as it applies beyond the equipment line). All of that being said I do not believe it to be a simple issue with a quick fix, but rather one that requires a deeper rework. As to the priority of the issue, I have been in favor of an equipment rework including the active scanner since my first term as CPM and generally class the four 'race bound' bits of logistics related equipment as high priority within that consideration.

If this clarification does not alter perception of our relative stances then please do elaborate on the particulars of how and why as I'd be interested to address - or if address is not possible some how to at least consider - those points of concern.

Cheers,
Cross

I understand the assumption of your theoretical module however the assumption itself is where I find there to be question in application. Particularly "is putting them to use as often as they are made available" this presumes quite a bit more than it may seem at first blush.

It assumes that the player is paying proper attention at all times throughout the match and fully understands the UI, this eliminates new bros and a number of causal players/players who can get distracted by comms or other actions.

It further assumes that they (the scanners) are made available at times when their use is also both available and applicable, e.g. there are hostile mercs within scan range and more importantly they are not applying threat to the user in such a manner as to inhibit scan use.

Both of these things have direct implications to player skill and experience, further they even hold some meaningful implications for relative player player skill and experience because a deeply outmatched player will have fewer opportunities to do much thinking or more rarefied behavior beyond run and shoot (or honestly spawn and die in many cases).

Now, the theoretical module you present seems quite solid to me if one runs with the assumption as presented, but it is the assumption itself which causes the departure of our views regarding actual battlefield conditions and thus my assertion that player skill - both personal and comparative - is quite relevant.

Thanks for the break down on individual scanners, that's the type of data I find very useful. May I request a bit of a deeper dive so I'm 100% certain regarding the why of each listed instance being problematic (or a non-issue, as noted in your list) as I'd hate to fix one set of problems but create another by overlooking something that may be obvious to those outside my perspective.

Cheers,
Cross

Needles already restore shields, so the second one is a bit pointless.

The first one... a revive providing an "overshield" or a short term damage resistance would be fantastic, as carrying a nanite injector might actually be more than marginally useful again (as most people currently will not ask for a revive no matter what the situation)... I personally think that should either be a function of the injectors themselves, or available to all logis, not just a racial bonus, if it is introduced at all, though perhaps better efficacy for the caldari logi would be fine.

I like it, you could just apply the vehicle hardener resist to infantry!

Go big or go home. ]